Nov. 27, 2024
Goto Topic:
For more information, please visit our website.
Previous&#;NextGoto:
Forum List&#;Message List&#;New Topic&#;Search&#;Log In Or Register&#;Print ViewZirconia guides
Emory Harry (---.client.attbi.com)Posted by:(---.client.attbi.com)
Date: February 25, 02:09PM
Recently there has been a lot of confusion and maybe even some misinformation about guides. Some of the things said did not seem to square with what I thought I knew about the materials that the guides are made of so I thought that I would look into it and pass on what I found out.
There are a number of material from which the guide rings are made but the one around which there seems to be the most confusion is Zirconia.
Zirconia guides are offered by a number of suppliers including Pacific Bay, Batson Industries, American Tackle and Fuji. Fuji though wanting something in the market that was unique calls their Zirconia guides Alconite and they trade marked the name Alconite. In other words Alconite is just Fuji's name for Zirconia.
The blue Zirconia guides offered by American Tackle and Batson Industries both have a Zirconia base and are vacuum chamber plated, vapor deposition, to give them the blue color. I am told that they are both plated with the same material. Sorry I do not know yet what they are plated with. But the underlying material in both cases is Zirconia.
Zirconia guides are harder which means less wear, smoother which means less friction and heat build up, and also have better thermal properties than most other guide materials such as Titanium Oxide, Aluminum Oxide, and either Hardloy, Hialoy or H'ard which are trade names for a higher grade of Aluminum Oxide.
SiC is still harder, smoother and has better thermal characteristics than Zirconia but not much. Sorry I can not quantify this yet.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Patrick Vernacchio (---.telalaska.com)Posted by:(---.telalaska.com)
Date: February 25, 02:17PM
Emory, Thanks for the insight. Sounds like yer on target.
Patrick
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
John Slanski (---.jensenindustries.com)Posted by:(---.jensenindustries.com)
Date: February 25, 05:53PM
Good stuff - but - I read somewhere
(http://www.hotspot.com.au/awareness/alconite.htm)
that Alconites were a modified Al2O3, rather than zirconia. Don't know how reliable that site is.
My next project will be my first with Alconites, so I can (and will) check for sure. In the meantime, I'll bet Sang knows!
J
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Emory Harry (---.client.attbi.com)Posted by:(---.client.attbi.com)
Date: February 25, 07:50PM
John,
You might want to look at the American Tackle, Pacific Bay and Batson zirconia guides. They are the same thing, they are cheaper than Alconite and the blue ones that Batson and American Tackle offer are really pretty. I think that they are the nicest looking guides on the market, especially when combined with blue wrapping.
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Mike Barkley (---.proxy.aol.com)Posted by:(---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: February 25, 10:48PM
There are some beautiful ( Blue, holographic, etc.) guides available but no one seems to make the matching low fly type guides that are needed for the Concept system.
I would sure like to see some of these companies take the concept guide system in to account. Judging from posting, I am not the only one that is almost exclusively using that system. It looks like those of us that prefer that system have limited options when it comes to guides.
Mike
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Ken Preston (---.longhl01.md.comcast.net)Posted by:(---.longhl01.md.comcast.net)
Date: February 25, 10:53PM
You will get efficient and thoughtful service from Zmdy Ceramics.
Mike -
Last year there were two law suits filed over patent infringement that I'm aware of over guide design (frames, finishes). It's possible that some folks are getting a little 'gun(metal) shy' .
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
American Tackle Company (216.199.119.---)Posted by:(216.199.119.---)
Date: February 25, 11:28PM
Hi Emory,We agree with you, we do think it is important that the correct information is understood by consumers. That is why American Tackle Company publishes in our catalog what our ceramic ring materials are made from. We do not think some of the statements you made are correct concerning what some companies in the USA are offering. As I stated before, American Tackle Company in the only company in the US to offer a blue colored guide with a Zirconia ceramic substrate ring material. Other blue guides offered in the US that we have tested are made with Titanium Oxide. In our research, we have found that Zirconium is a superior ceramic ring substrate material when applying TiC, TiN, Blue and Holographic depositions to line guides. That is why we use it for our deposition coated guides.Additionally, our coatings are not the same as those offered by Batson Enterprises as you have stated â&#;&#; who ever told you that is misinformed. We think our coating are superior to ANY other coating offered on the US market for an number of reasons:1) We prepare the substrate ceramic ring better. Proper polishing techniques have to be followed when preparing the surface for deposition coatings. We are careful not to us release agents or polishing compounds that contain silicone. Deposition adhesion problems and uniformity of the deposition layer result.2) Our rings are not ground after the deposition is applied. Take a very close look at guides offered by others in the US â&#;&#; look at the outside edge where it meets the metal frame, you may see that the deposition coating does not exists on the outside edge. This is due to the fact the ring is ground AFTER the deposition is applied.. When guides are ground after deposition, care has to be taken not to generate excessive heat. This heat can lead to stress cracks in the substrateâ&#;&#;s surface or anneal the surface leaving soft spots â&#;&#; poor qualities for a line guide. By carefully controlling the thickness and uniformity of the deposition during the deposition process â&#;&#; we find it is not necessary grind the outside edges of our guides after deposition and not experience the risky effects of grinding after deposition.3) We use a lower operating temperature to apply the deposition. The higher the deposition temperature, the greater the likely hood that the substrate material will experience problems. CeramicNot only is the substrate material important, but the deposition process, be it CVD (chemical vapor deposition â&#;&#; laser/photo, thermal or plasma) or PVD (physical vapor deposition) can vary greatly. All vapor deposition coatings are NOT created equal! There are differences in the coating processes used to apply TiN & TiC in the preparation of the substrate ceramic rings, and in the talent of the company applying the coatings. American Tackle Company uses the latest coating technology, and a manufacturer with many years of vacuum coating experience to produce the highest quality coatings available in the fishing rod component industry.American Tackle Company is undergoing a major re-tooling of all our guides. Our goal is to produce the absolutely best guides available in the USA â&#;&#; superior in design, material and quality. We think we have done it & know you will agree once you see the new holographic guides. We have been working on extensive testing of our new guides (both in the field & laboratory) to be sure our guides are simple the best available. The fruits of our hard labor are about to be reveled to the custom rod building community with the release of the new holographic line guides this month.Warmest Regards,Joe Meehan, PresidentAmerican Tackle Company
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Emory Harry (---.client.attbi.com)Posted by:(---.client.attbi.com)
Date: February 26, 12:03PM
Mr. Meehan,
I can not dispute your claim that some other guide manufacturers are not using Zirconia as a substrate on the guides that they claim are Zirconia. I don't have the equipment necessary or the knowledge to test them. However, I am suspicious because they would be committing fraud which I have a hard time believing.
You describe the materials that you use and also describe some of your processes and submit that they are superior to what others are using and are doing. I would like to make two points in response. #1. I think that you purchase your guides from a supplier off shore like others do and do not really control the processes. However, maybe you do buy your guides from someone who uses superior processes. However, #2. Vapor Deposition has been around a long time, and it is not rocket science. I have been aware of it's use in the semiconductor industry for at least 20 years. The equipment to accomplish it is off the shelf and the processes are well known, well documented, and can be very easily duplicated or copied.
At this point I think that we have probably pushed this discussion beyond the point that is appropriate for this forum. If you would like to discuss it further let's do it by .
Regards,
Emory Harry
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Bob Batson (---.dsl.sea.megapath.net)Posted by:(---.dsl.sea.megapath.net)
Date: February 26, 02:04PM
In answer to Mike Barkley's question, we do offer the low framed fly type of guides in the zirconium/blue inserts, and have for quite some time. Please feel free to look at them on our site, under the model "F" series.
There was an in depth discussion some time ago on this board regarding inserts. A search can be done under "ceramic inserts".
In response to the different insert vendors, I will say that there are quite a few of them. There is one major vendor of inserts that most of the higher quality suppliers use. There are others that some of the lower end suppliers and Asian rod manufacturers use, to hit their price points. Component suppliers use these vendors, with the frames being manufactured and assembled in either Mainland China, Korea, or Taiwan.
We use the most prominent insert supplier, and have the frames and assembly finished off in Taiwan. The reason this decision is made
for our company is the fact that the I have worked with the Taiwan manufacturers for many years, and have a long standing relationship with them. We must pay more for our products, but feel it is worth it not to compromise our satndards.
When we work on quality standards and new items, there is complete cooperation. When I require newly developed items for our USA rod manufacturers, there is cooperation to design and supply exclusively to the particular customer, without betraying their confidentiality.
We utilize only the best vendors that will work with us per our standards. In our more than thirty years in the custom rod building, manufacturing, and supply business, we feel that our track record speaks for itself.
There are many like items in the rod building industry, from various suppliers. We are fortunate in this country to have the choices that we do in rod components and rod blanks.
As for our company, we will stand on the foundation that has been built upon. We do not feel that pointing a finger at company X, Y, or Z,
is fruitful at all. We concentrate on our business, and serving the rod building community with many years of manufacturing and developmental experience.
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Bob Batson (---.dsl.sea.megapath.net)Posted by:(---.dsl.sea.megapath.net)
Date: February 26, 02:18PM
OOPS!
Sorry, as I was in the process of editing the above post, and posted it instead.
Bob Batson
Rainshadow Rod Blanks
Forecast Rod Components
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteRe: Zirconia guides
Tom Kirkman (---.56.162.224.Dial1.Raleigh1.Level3.net)Posted by:(---.56.162.224.Dial1.Raleigh1.Level3.net)
Date: February 26, 02:53PM
You can use any guides with the New Guide Concept System. It is not dependent on Fuji guides or the New Concept Guides.
..........
Options:
Reply&#;QuoteGoto:
Forum List&#;Message List&#;Search&#;Log In Or RegisterSorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Click here to login
For more 3 mm zirconia rodinformation, please contact us. We will provide professional answers.
If you are interested in sending in a Guest Blogger Submission,welcome to write for us!
All Comments ( 0 )